When Kanemoto Sunadomari began work on his biography of Morihei Ueshiba he enlisted the help of his younger sister, Fukiko, in interviewing the many people whose lives had been touched by the Master. In this interview she joins Shigeo Sakurai, who was acquainted with O-Sensei during his days at Ayabe and Hidetaro Nishimura, a talented judoka who became one of O-Sensei’s uchideshi.

Fukiko Sunadmari assisting
O-Sensei with calligraphy c. 1965

Sakurai Sensei: I first heard of Ueshiba Sensei when I was at Ayabe, in around 1921. At that time he had a dojo at the foot of Mt. Hongu, and his art was not yet called aikido. I saw Ueshiba Sensei’s teacher there once. His name was something Takeda….

Sunadomari Sensei: Sokaku Takeda Sensei.

Sakurai Sensei: That’s right. He was there. I saw him, but never spoke with him. I heard that he did some kind of martial art and was Ueshiba Sensei’s teacher. This was in 1921.

Sunadomari Sensei: I see. So that must have been when Takeda Sensei was staying temporarily in Ayabe, wasn’t it?

Sakurai Sensei: Yes. Sometime during the ’20s I was introduced to my wife, Chika, through Ueshiba Sensei. She often went to his house and she told me that she had delivered Ueshiba Sensei’s wife [Hatsu] of a child, Kisshomaru. One time I told this to Mr. Kisshomaru. Anyway, although I didn’t go to learn the art, I used to go to Ueshiba Sensei’s house. In 1924 he left for Mongolia. After he came back, he went to Takeda [a town in Hyogo Prefecture] and was involved in establishing the Budo Sen’yokai. This was before the Omoto Incident of 1935.

Nishimura Sensei: When I first met Ueshiba Sensei, he taught me that the Chinese character “bu” meant “to abolish arms.” He explained that budo was not something just to be practiced, but that the true meaning of bu was to strive to create a heaven on earth by avoiding those who might do you harm, by joining hands. He also said that the techniques of bu came from the kami. From the first, I thought that he had very interesting ideas.

Sakurai Sensei: Bu refers to the spirit of peace. In this sense, our current military preparations should be based on the spirit of peace, and should not be meant to start a war. However, this peaceful spirit is lacking these days. Ueshiba Sensei told me something to that effect.

Nishimura Sensei: From the religious point of view, Ueshiba Sensei went to Umeda [a mansion in Yotsuya, Tokyo which belonged to Kikuo Umeda, an Omoto believer, and also Nishimura’s distant relative] in order to spread his budo in Tokyo. I was also at Umeda at that time. Ueshiba Sensei came to Umeda to hew his way through the jungle with bu. This was also the reason Onisaburo Deguchi came to Tokyo, I think. I supported them then.

In 1925, naval officers from the Umeda General Staff Office came. At that time, I met men such as Admiral Isamu Takeshita, Yosuke Yamamoto, Sankichi Takahashi and Kosaburo Gejo, who was a master of Yagyu-ryu in the use of fukuroshinai (a leather or cloth-covered practice sword). It was said that he had once stabbed someone to death, and that he entered Ueshiba Sensei’s dojo at the age of 63. People who had done kendo were deeply interested in Ueshiba Sensei’s taisabaki (body movement) and came to learn from him.

When I first met Seishi [Onisaburo Deguchi], I handed him my name card. My title, “Chief Secretary of the Judo Club,” was written on this card, and since I thought this was too grand to show to Seishi I crossed the title out before I handed him the card. However, he could still read the title because it was printed. He asked me if I practiced judo and said, “We have a braggart called Ueshiba here. Why don’t you take him down a peg or two” [laughter].

When I thought about it later, I realized it was I who was the braggart. I went to Omoto because I had confidence in my judo. Without that skill, Omoto seemed a bit frightening. In one sense, it was judo which made me go to Omoto. It was also because Sakurai Sensei, one of my middle school teachers, was in Omoto.

When Seishi told me to take care of Ueshiba and get rid of his conceit, I doubted that there could be any remarkable person in the mountains of Tango [Kyoto Prefecture]. I also thought privately that I hadn’t come to Omoto to learn the art. However, since I had time and wanted to see and perhaps try it, I went to the dojo. There I found three people who appeared to be Ueshiba’s students drinking sake. I thought to myself that many martial artists like to drink.

When I first saw Ueshiba Sensei, his face looked exactly like a Korean Noh mask of a warrior with goggled eyes. Sensei said, “Today we had a festival and are having some sake. Would you like some?” I said yes, and drank. Although Ueshiba Sensei may have been a martial artist, he was very small in stature. I also found it strange that a religious group would be practicing a martial art. So I asked him why he practiced. Then he started explaining to me, as I mentioned earlier, about the meaning of bu. He told me that bu was for peace.

Then he told me about one of his spiritual experiences. One time after he had practiced very hard, he wiped the sweat from his body and went outside. Then he saw golden ki descending from Heaven. This golden ki curled upwards from the ground and Sensei was enveloped in it. Instantly, he attained a state of mind where he felt sorry even to step on an ant. I found Ueshiba Sensei very interesting because he told me this story. Sensei continued, and said, “Bu should be used for peace and for human beings through the eight powers of the kami.”

Then Sensei told me to come to see him in the afternoon and said that he would demonstrate the art for me. I thought to myself that the martial arts were originally secret arts which should never be taught or shown to outsiders… but I went to see him that afternoon.

Sensei was there with his sleeves rolled up and he told me to attack him from any direction. This was in a room of the rice shop in Ayabe. I stayed afterwards to learn the art whenever I went over to this rice shop. Anyway, since he told me to attack him from any direction, I thought that I would throw this little man away, you know [laughter]. I approached to grab him but was instantly thrown. Such a little man as Sensei threw me by turning rapidly.

Then I tried to grab him again and this time he threw me while I was still holding on to him. Every time he threw me he tapped on my back and laughed. I had been practicing judo up until that time and I had learned to choke an enemy to death by holding his neck or to break his arm by reversing it. It was a bloody world. I did judo to cultivate my spirit, but it was bloody. However, Ueshiba Sensei would tap on my back when he threw me and laugh. I thought that the art must be quite wonderful if you could do it while laughing [laughter].

He continued to demonstrate. In the end he threw me without even touching me. It was like a dream. I had thought that in order to throw an opponent, it was necessary to use either one’s legs or hips. However, Sensei showed me a totally different world where he threw people without touching them at all.

After I studied the art for one week, I felt more calm and I practiced much less judo. When I went to the judo dojo, I would say things like, “Your training is not sufficient as long as you still throw your opponent by grabbing him!” [laughter].

There was a man called Matsugoro Okuda who taught Jigoro Kano Sensei’s judo in the Tohoku area. He liked me and said that he would teach me judo. The head of the university judo club asked me to visit Okuda to learn judo at the club’s expense so that I could teach the art to the club. I visited Omoto to show off my judo ability before I went to see Okuda and I ended up meeting a person even greater. Deguchi Seishi, the greatest person in the world, told me that Ueshiba Sensei was the greatest martial artist in the world. Although I was not particularly knowledgeable about anything, I did have good masters. In my middle school days, Kyuzo Mifune was my teacher. Mifune Sensei always bragged about me and said that I was really strong. Since he had a strong organization, he had me take the Kodokan’s first kyu promotion test when I was only third kyu.

Sunadomari Sensei: I have heard that Hidetaro Nishimura was the strongest judoka ever to belong to the Waseda club.

Nishimura Sensei: I was already teaching judo when I entered the university. I invited Mifune Sensei to Waseda to teach judo. It was Seishi who opened my eyes to judo l life.

I practiced judo to attain spiritual enlightenment. But I wasn’t finding spiritual peace. When I met Seishi and he spoke to me, I finally found a state of spiritual peace.

Sakurai Sensei: This is what Ueshiba Sensei himself also told me. he said that until he went to Mongolia his art was budo but after that trip it changed and became a true and pure art.

Sunadomari Sensei: I remember Sensei saying that he had difficulty in executing techniques because of his power.

Sakurai Sensei: That is what Seishi was worried about.

Nishimura Sensei: It is necessary to relax your shoulders. You should not rely on power from the beginning. This is what I heard from Mr. Saburo Wakuta, Tenryu [1903-1989. Former sumo wrestler of the rank of sekiwake. Entered the Kobukan in 1939 and studied for about 70 days under Ueshiba]. He said that when Ueshiba Sensei was sitting on the mat, smiling, and he tried to push against his back, it was he who slid backwards.

Mr. Kenji Tomiki, whom I introduced to Ueshiba Sensei, has been studying with Sensei for a long time. He told me, “I cannot tell when Ueshiba Sensei’s body changes position since he moves so fast. His body and spirit are united and he can move his body as his mind wishes.” He even said, “Ueshiba Sensei’s body cells move and each one of them gathered together makes up his personality.”

When practices used to be held in an outlying building at Umeda, I would sleep with Ueshiba Sensei in the same room at night. But I could never tell whether he was asleep or awake. He would often say things such as, “Mr. Ito is coming here soon.” Mr. Ito was an inspired person who could understand written codes by just looking at them. Admiral Takeshita often mentioned that Mr. Ito had mysterious powers. Anyway, he had this special inspired talent. When such a spiritual person came, Ueshiba Sensei seemed to feel it. When he said that Mr. Ito would come soon, I told him that he was not coming yet. However, after about 20 minutes, Mr. Ito opened the sliding door and came in. Ueshiba Sensei was perceptive in this way.

Once when I was taking ukemi for Ueshiba Sensei, he was using a wooden sword made of loquat wood (biwa), and I was using a new sword made of oak. Usually we conduct kirikaeshi (turning the sword) by switching the wooden sword back and forth, don’t we? But Ueshiba Sensei was not doing it that way, and was instead reversing the direction of the blade. When I went to strike him, my oak sword broke. The wooden sword I was using then was not one with knots or defects, but was very carefully made. I still do not understand how he could project such mysterious power.

Sunadomari Sensei: I heard this story for the first time from Mr. Haruji Yoshida in Ayabe. One time Sensei told him that he should come and attack him seriously with intent to kill. Sensei was said to be holding a wooden sword. According to Mr. Yoshida, Sensei sent him flying with the edge of his wooden sword. Mr. Yoshida, feeling chagrined, tried again but was again thrown away. He told me that it was a truly mysterious experience. I was impressed to know that such mysterious things really happened.

Ueshiba Sensei’s wife told me that Mr. Nishimura was present when Ueshiba Sensei received an inspiration. Something came down from Mt. Hongu with a great sound and entered into Sensei with a tapping noise. This put Sensei into a state where he could receive budo from the kami. She told me to ask you, Mr. Nishimura, about that incident.

Nishimura Sensei: When I was staying with Ueshiba sensei, I did have such a mysterious experience. The sliding doors moved themselves. Nothing was moving them. I remember such things.

Ueshiba Sensei explained such mysteries as the doings of Ryujin [the dragon God] or of the Tengu [a long-nosed goblin] of Mt. Kurama. I didn’t understand what they had to do with the mystery though.

At that time Mr. Kisshomaru was still a toddler and I sometimes practiced with his sister, Matsuko. She was the same age as my wife.

Ueshiba Sensei’s techniques are genuine, you know. They can be applied to anything, including financial, political or military matters. For example, the air strike against Pearl Harbor was a method of irimi tenkan. Because the Japanese bombers flew there in front of the American Air Force, the men at Pearl Harbor thought that they were American troops. That was irimi tenkan. I heard that the Japanese headquarters talked about applying this irimi tenkan in their tactics. The military weapons of an individual can be used on either a large or small scale. A person who can manage a household well can manage a country as well. I also believe that a person who can control himself can also control others.

One time we used to practice on tatami mats spread on the living room floor of a house in Shiba. There was a chandelier hanging from the ceiling which hung down to about five or six feet above the floor. We once broke this chandelier.

One time Ueshiba Sensei took a piece of Japanese paper and folded it into four. Then he told me to come get it. I did, but was thrown the moment I touched the paper. He was holding the paper along one edge and I was supposed to take hold of the paper along the other edge. So we were connected only through the paper. But Sensei threw me before the paper could tear. The stance I had to take to grab at the paper was already one which forced me to be thrown. My balance was broken. I thought that I had succeeded in grabbing the paper but probably he just let me grab it. I don’t know how he did it. Anyway, he used to say that you had to throw your opponent before the paper ripped. At that time many generals observed this demonstration. They said that the stories written in the Tachikawa Bunko [a series of books for boys published by Tachikawa Bunmeido publishing company in Osaka in the late Meiji through Taisho eras; many of them were fiction] had come true. Ueshiba Sensei really did something that extraordinary.

Sunadomari Sensei: I see. A big person like yourself was thrown like that. I understand now why that chandelier was broken. Did you feel that your feet were almost touching the ceiling when you were thrown?

Nishimura Sensei: That’s right. Ueshiba Sensei told me to come and attack him.

Sunadomari Sensei: I have heard that old-time students of Ueshiba Sensei used to touch the ceiling when they took ukemi for him. It was true, wasn’t it? It is lucky to have a living witness here.

Nishimura Sensei: I was forced to open my eyes to a whole new world of true judo. Mr. Tomiki now is scientifically organizing judo theory. At that time there were nagewaza (throwing techniques) and osaewaza (pinning techniques) in judo but Jigoro Kano Sensei said that the gyakute (reverse) techniques taught by Ueshiba Sensei were real judo. This caused Mr. Tomiki to study Ueshiba Sensei’s techniques seriously. I introduced Mr. Tomiki to Ueshiba Sensei. Both Mr. Tomiki and myself had been practicing judo and I was hoping that I could support myself by teaching judo. But I didn’t want to become merely a judoka. I felt that somehow I had come up against a wall. This was why I came to Omoto. And my eyes were opened to real judo.

Sunadomari Sensei: I understand that Kano Sensei sent some of his students to the Ueshiba dojo to study under Ueshiba Sensei instead of going himself because he was too old to practice the art. Was this much later?

Nishimura Sensei: That’s right. Much later, after I had gone to Manchuria. Mr. Tomiki went to Ueshiba Sensei after I did. Since I was to go to work for Mantetsu (the South Manchuria Railway), I thought that I should find a fine young man for Sensei. Then I happened to run into Mr. Tomiki and Mr. Yamamoto in Yotsuya Mitsuke. Mr. Tomiki was a person of noble character and I thought that he would be suitable. I had met him three years earlier and we had had a good talk. This time we walked to Shimbashi and went to a tempura restaurant. When I mentioned Ueshiba Sensei while we were eating, Mr. Tomiki asked me to take him to Sensei. There was a large room with 40 mats, which faced the garden, in Baron Morimura’s house. I took Mr. Tomiki there and introduced him to Ueshiba Sensei. Mr. Tomiki was a little taller than I was. However, he was thrown in about 63 different ways just by having his hand held by Ueshiba Sensei. He was thrown from corner to corner of that 40 mat room. He was thrown and flew far and had to walk back to Sensei. This experience caused Mr. Tomiki to become devoted to the art.

This was when Mr. Tomiki was still a university student. He was the eldest son of a wealthy family. He worked as a teacher of his old school and also taught judo there. He was responsible for keeping his family’s land. However, he was quite devoted to the art and wanted to continue studying it.

Then after he got married, he rented a place near Ueshiba Sensei’s house and studied with him for 10 years. I talked to him often after I returned from Manchuria. He used to say, “Ueshiba Sensei is a living national treasure.” He was devoted to his study of the art, and he pursued his study scientifically. Since he was practicing judo, he also studied various old martial arts.

I believe that I am a man of foresight, you know. I encouraged Mr. Tomiki to start the art because I thought that the art was just wonderful. I myself didn’t practice the art much, though. But Mr. Tomiki has been practicing for nearly 40 years. That’s where he is so great. Ueshiba Sensei thought that Tomiki lessened the value of aiki, and Mr. Tomiki also had trouble with the Kodokan. However, he is a fine, serious man. He gradually attained proficiency in the art and now has many fine successors. He is now a university professor. One can continue to teach as a professor until the age of 70.

Sunadomari Sensei: I believe that Ueshiba Sensei misses his students from the old days. He often talks about them.

Nishimura Sensei: Well, we were all directly taught by Sensei. Also I was his first student from the judo world. Because Seishi told me to practice the art, I could do it with great confidence.

Mr. Tomiki is having a hard time in his position between judo and aiki, but as could be expected, he has cooperated with judoka. You must have a dojo to practice in, you know. The Judo Federations of Kita Kyushu aixd Yamaguchi Prefecture are now beginning to include aiki. In present-day judo, people as they age gradually lose physical stamina. This is the reason aiki is now being taught to judo 1st and 2nd dans. In this way they can continue to run the dojo. You have to be successful financially to run a dojo, you know.

Sunadomari Sensei: It seems so. Judo people have started to change their attitude toward aikido these days.

Nishimura Sensei: The credit should go to Mr. Tomiki. Whenever I meet judoka who know aiki, they all know it through Mr. Tomiki.

Sunadomari Sensei: Putting aside technical matters now, if we talk about the way the art should be understood, I feel that some sort of spiritual belief is indispensable. Without it aikido is impossible to understand. This is why I thought that I ought to publish a book about Ueshiba Sensei while it is not too late. The people around me agree with me and this made me to decide to act. There were some calls for action four or five years ago, but I didn’t feel like doing it myself at that time because the people around me were not so enthusiastic.

Nishimura Sensei: If we do not collect supporting evidence while Sensei is alive and ask him to look at what we have found, it will be quite difficult to do a good job.

Sunadomari Sensei: It is hard, isn’t it? Sensei clearly states that it is the art of the kami. Therefore, we should emphasize the fact that the art was created through the kami of Omoto, Onisaburo Deguchi Seishi and Ueshiba Sensei, and should transmit this fact to later generations.

Nishimura Sensei: There are no other martial artists in history who were able to spread their art to the world in such a short period.

There are many martial artists but they have only scrolls with techniques described based on kuden (oral teaching). However, in the case of Ueshiba Sensei, there is some film of him [AN Tape 5, Aiki Budo]. You can even hear his kiai on it. I believe we ought to preserve these important materials. This is one of our Japanese traditional arts. It was continuously revised and reborn until it happened to encounter a man called Ueshiba and he was able to perfect it.

Sunadomari Sensei: That’s right. It is the perfected Way. Sensei practiced many different martial arts and also went as far as Hokkaido to cultivate the land there. He built a fine village there and he met a sensei called Sokaku Takeda before he left Hokkaido. However, aikido and Daito-ryu are completely different arts and people who practice these arts all agree on this point.

Nishimura Sensei: Yes, they are completely different. If you study them, you will find that the Daito-ryu techniques which are the original forms from old fighting arts are very brutal. The art was created only to be used in real fighting, real war. Therefore, I think that the artistic aspects or dignity of the art were not considered at all.

Sunadomari Sensei: The reason the two arts are completely different is because aikido is the art of the kami.

Although you mentioned this earlier, after Ueshiba Sensei experienced being enveloped by golden ki, he could move a stone which ten people together could not move easily. I heard that when he touched the stone with his hand and said “UUUUU,” which is the kotodama of “U,” he could move the stone.

Nishimura Sensei: He was a genius. But he was not particularly good at organizing things.

Sunadomari Sensei: Such things are difficult for a genius like him.

Nishimura Sensei: He could not do things according to a set form. He always had to shed his old skin. Otherwise there would never have been any development of his art.