Aikido Journal

Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 64

Is it correct to say that the O in O Sensei was added to differentiate between him and Waka Sensei (second doshu). If so, when did this happen?

Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 57 Location: Zaragoza, Spain

I don't think so. Takeda also called himself O'Sensei after all...

http://flintstonecom.blogspot.com/2007/03/takeda-osensei.html

Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 64

The reason I am asking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensei#.C5.8Csensei.2C_Daisensei_and_Wakasensei . Also here: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=750

Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 57 Location: Zaragoza, Spain

Yes, I understand your question. But now, was he being called O'Sensei before Kisshomaru even began studying the art? And, was Takeda Sokaku being called O'Sensei before Takeda Tokimune learnt his father's art? I guess that the answer to these two questions will render the answer to the original one.

I believe that O'Sensei is not always coupled with a corresponding Waka Sensei. But then I'm usually wrong...

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:05 am

Quick question:

Is a term such as "O-Sensei" something one can call oneself, or does it have to be bestowed by those who follow that person's teaching? My own understanding was that the term was something like the title "master", such that if you use it to identify yourself, you aren't one. Know what I mean? In contrast such terms as "soke" and "hanshi" or "shihan" are titles a person can use to identify themselves, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Japan

The 大先生 in Ueshiba's kyoju dairi is properly read "dai-sensei". This is what Takeda was known by, as a check of some of the Daito-ryu related articles here at Aikido Journal and Kondo Katsuyuki's website daito-ryu.org will confirm.

"Daisensei" is the usual reading of that compound. "Osensei" is somewhat irregular.

glad2bhere wrote:

Quick question:

Is a term such as "O-Sensei" something one can call oneself, or does it have to be bestowed by those who follow that person's teaching? My own understanding was that the term was something like the title "master", such that if you use it to identify yourself, you aren't one. Know what I mean? In contrast such terms as "soke" and "hanshi" or "shihan" are titles a person can use to identify themselves, yes? Thoughts?

"Sensei" and it's variants like "Dai-sensei", "O-sensei", or "Waka-sensei", are essentially terms of address, like "Mr." or "Mrs. As such, it's inappropriate to, say, sign a letter using it, whereas one could do so with "soke" or "shihan".

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:08 am

Many thanks; much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 57 Location: Zaragoza, Spain

Josh Reyer wrote:

The 大先生 in Ueshiba's kyoju dairi is properly read "dai-sensei". This is what Takeda was known by, as a check of some of the Daito-ryu related articles here at Aikido Journal and Kondo Katsuyuki's website daito-ryu.org will confirm.

"Daisensei" is the usual reading of that compound. "Osensei" is somewhat irregular.

Thank you for a very good point!

Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 64

Probably a related question, occasionally the founder is referred to as a 'Professor' ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Professor+Morihei ) .

Was he a professor or is it just a "translation" of O Sensei?

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:44 am

theolifant wrote:

Probably a related question, occasionally the founder is referred to as a 'Professor' ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Professor+Morihei ) .

Was he a professor or is it just a "translation" of O Sensei?

I have one of Kenji Tomiki's books at home, he referred to O'Sensei as Professor Ueshiba all through the book (he also referred to Jigoro Kano as Professor Kano).

--Robert Goldsworthy

Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Japan

theolifant wrote:

Probably a related question, occasionally the founder is referred to as a 'Professor' ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Professor+Morihei ) .

Was he a professor or is it just a "translation" of O Sensei?

It's just a translation of "sensei".

Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 39

Jigoro Kano and Kenji Tomiki were tenured University Professors.

Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 64

Quote:

It's just a translation of "sensei".

Is it common in Japan to translate "sensei" as "professor" and not as "teacher" ?

Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Japan

theolifant wrote:

Quote:

It's just a translation of "sensei".

Is it common in Japan to translate "sensei" as "professor" and not as "teacher" ?

Not at all. But Ueshiba never went to college, let alone graduate school, nor was he ever a "kyoju" (the Japanese word for "profesor") in a university, so why use the word? I recall seeing "Professor Ueshiba" in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere", and IIRC an early book by Tohei before he broke off from the Aikikai. Very early books, before the word "sensei" was widely known in the West. It is not, OTOH, used today by the Aikikai in official publications. I suspect that most modern use of the term is due to influence from "Dynamic Sphere."

Edit: I should further note that "teacher" is a translation of the noun, "sensei", and not the term of address, which has no translation in English. If Westi and Rattibrook were casting about for a way to translate "sensei" as a term of address, "professor" is the only one that is exclusively used by teachers and educators. I suspect that's why they used it.

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:42 pm

Josh Reyer wrote:

theolifant wrote:

Quote:

It's just a translation of "sensei".

Is it common in Japan to translate "sensei" as "professor" and not as "teacher" ?

Not at all. But Ueshiba never went to college, let alone graduate school, nor was he ever a "kyoju" (the Japanese word for "profesor") in a university, so why use the word? I recall seeing "Professor Ueshiba" in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere", and IIRC an early book by Tohei before he broke off from the Aikikai. Very early books, before the word "sensei" was widely known in the West. It is not, OTOH, used today by the Aikikai in official publications. I suspect that most modern use of the term is due to influence from "Dynamic Sphere."

Edit: I should further note that "teacher" is a translation of the noun, "sensei", and not the term of address, which has no translation in English. If Westi and Rattibrook were casting about for a way to translate "sensei" as a term of address, "professor" is the only one that is exclusively used by teachers and educators. I suspect that's why they used it.

OK? Except how does that go along with Kenji Tomiki's book? I don't think Tomiki was influenced by Westbrook and Ratti.

--Robert Goldsworthy