So I like to ask you all to answer my questions and not to react to other replies. The reason I am asking this is that in many topics the real question stay's unanswered or becomes to difficult to understand for most (me) people. So don't be offended!
Off course I forgot a lot of questions so feel free to complete the list.

Here are the questions:
1. What is the exact origin of torifune and furitama?
2. What was O Sensei's first encounter with these exercises in your opinion (with who)?
3. What is the reason O Sensei used the exercises?
4. Did O Sensei used them for original purposes or did he change the idea's behind them?
5. Did, in your opinion, the uchi deshi's understand the meaning of these exercises as O Sensei tried to explain them to them?
6. For what reason should we use the exercises in aikido today?
7. How should the exercises be performed? I have seen a few different ways.

I hope the questions are the right ones to get a clear picture about these two exercises.

Arjan

Just some tips:

"Amenotorifune no Gui" is the name shintoists uses to give to this exercice its purpose is to cleanse the body from impurities in the "missogui" cerimonies, it must be followed with strong Kotodama, "Ieeee, Eiiii" with the left back in front and "Hooooooo, Eiiiiii" with the right foot in front.And then "EI, EI, EI"....doing fast with the left foot in front and done after doing "furidama", "shaking the soul" (from impurities).
In pratical martial terms, it develops a lot the begginer capacity to use the "hara", and learning how to produce spiralitic energy clockwise and counter clock wise back an fourth, or to down, that will be a must to perform "meguri", that is the basic action to all Aikido basic techniques from ikio to kotegaeshi. The Ikyo Undo , is designed with a similar purpose but more directed to trasfer the energy from hara to up, like when doing the technique shomenuti ikio omote.

Funakogui means something like rowing the boat, like the japanese and chinese fisherman do standing up, in the back of the boat, rowing the row, like the tail of a fish to make him advance.

I dont think that all O Sensei

quote:

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Originally posted by Arjan de Vries:
6. For what reason should we use the exercises in aikido today?
7. How should the exercises be performed? I have seen a few different ways.

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I don`t have enough knowledge to comment on most of your questions, and what little I have for the above two is limited, but here goes. Talking about Torifune or Funekogi - boat rowing.

6. This is a very good exercise for developing kokyu ryoku, as Wagner says, an exercise for helping to develop the use of the hara.

7. Our dojo does it the same way as the Aikikai Hombu. First left foot forward, the arm movements should be vigorous and firm (not floppy or wavy, for want of a better description). The kotodama used is "e" (pronounced "ay") as the arms push forwards, and "o" (pronounced "oh") as the arms draw back, we do this about 10 to 15 times at a steady pace. We then change the stance to right foot forward, the kotodama changes to "e" (pronounced "ay") as the arms push forward, and "sa" as the arms draw back, again 10 to 15 at a steady rate.

The hips should move in tandem with the arm movement, this can result in the heel and toes raising from the floor with the respective forwards and backwards motion, my Sensei advocates this.

We have done variations on this, at our gasshuku last week, our kaicho had us doing this exercise in triple time, he said that O Sensei used to make him do it quickly as well as steady, although I didn`t catch the reasoning behind this. Another optional exercise is to do it with an uke, who will grab both wrists in ryote dori, you will then be able to see easier the effect of kokyu ryoku on your uke`s posture as you "push" him backwards off balance, or draw him forwards off balance.

just my 2 yen

Love, light, joy and Laughter

Bryan

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: batemanb ]

I dont know why in Hombu Dojo they changed the kotodama to "IEI SA", instead of "IEI HO", when right foot is ahead, like is done in missogi shinto cerimonies.

But you are right this is how it is taught in Aikikai.

Wagner Bull

The following information was taught to me directly by Seiseki Abe Sensei, 10th dan, at his Osaka dojo. He explains that this is the direct way O-Sensei taught him.

For those who may not know, beginning in 1952, O-Sensei spent about 1/3 of every month at Abe Sensei's home and taught aikido in the Osaka dojo that Abe Sensei built for him (next to his home). For those who aren't familiar with him, Abe Sensei was also O-Sensei's calligraphy teacher, and thus had a unique Master-Student, Student-Master relationship - although Abe Sensei would never say that, and always said he did not teach O-Sensei in the traditional manner...

Torifune no gyo is one of the eight "gyo" (literally - austere training methods) or practices of Misogi-no-Gyo (austere training methods/practices of Misogi), as taught by O-Sensei. Many people use misogi as a spiritual practice. Although there is this aspect, that is only a tangential part of the overall picture.

The actual reason O-Sensei practiced Misogi was not because it was a mystical Shinto practice, by any means. There is a real basis for this practice, one rooted in a clear physical science that has been observed in its true form and practiced by a limited number of followers for thousands of years. This training directly relates to our aikido practice. Simply speaking, it is used to develop "Kokyu" or breath power.

Kokyu is made up of two Kanji, "Ko" - meaning to breath out, and Kyu" - to breath in. There is also an advanced "bugei" aspect having to do with "hiding" ones breath from one's opponent. However, this is an advanced level of this training accomplished after years of companion breathing exercises. This is also a key aspect of advanced aiki-ju-jitsu.

Each of the eight specific Gyo of Misogi come from Kojiki. According to Abe Sensei, O-Sensei created aikido from kojiki. He states, "The two are inseparable."

They are:

1. Misogi-no-gyo (purification and breath training with cold water)

2. Torifune-no-gyo (rowing exercise to "actively" train the breath during movement)

3. Furitama-no-gyo (shaking hands in front of hara to passively train the breath while in standing meditation)

4. Norito-no-gyo (chanting of long prayers to further train and control the breath)

5. Otakebi-no-gyo (Lifting the hands over the head, and body up on the toes, bringing hands back down to below the tanden while shouting "eee-aaaay" and forcing all the breath from the body, again, breath training.

6. Okorobi-no-gyo (two different practices using tegatana "two-fingered sword" cutting, shouting "eee-aaaay" and forcing all the breath from the body, for breath training.

7. Chinkon Kishin-no-gyo (seated meditation, with specific hand postures, hand gestures, and specific meditative visualizations)

8. Shokuji-no-gyo (specific dietary measures designed to distinguish the body's physical power and change the blood from acidic (typical) to alkaline [to promote proper breathing, and correct mind/attitude/heart - kokoro-e])

According to Abe Sensei, the importance of this last Gyo is that its practice is paramount to understanding O-Sensei's mind - specifically as to directly realizing for one's self how and why O-Sensei developed aikido. However, due to the difficulty eating only 4 small cups of rice gruel a day in combination with the sincere undertaking of practicing all 8 Misogi-no-gyo for long, extended periods of time, it is usually left out - much to the detriment of the entire process. My personal experience of this training had me lose 35 pounds in less than 5 weeks.

With specific regards to Torifune, there are three different components or movements. Each are to be followed by furitama, thus creating a pattern of "active/passive" breath training.

In the first movement, While moving the hips forward, the emphasis is on moving the hands forward very quickly (fingers pointed down to the ground, active with "ki" and one's wrists are bent - note the rotation of the forearm from the ready position to the forward position) while exhaling (kiai) with the compound vowel sound "Eeee-Aaaay!" As the hips move back, the wrists follow (soft movement) with the vowel sound "ho!". This 2-part sequence of forwards and backwards should be repeated upwards of twenty times. This is the male aspect, or giving "ki" exercise or "Irimi/Kokyu-ho" (triangle/square) based techniques.
You should notice that you are breathing hard as you change to furitama-no-gyo exercise.

The second Torifune exercise reverses the emphasis, starting with a forward hip movement, a soft hand movement and kiai with "ho!" followed by the return of the hips, quick hand movement, while exhaling (kiai) with the compound vowel sound "Eeee-Aaaay!" Then furitama-no-gyo. This is female, or accepting ki exercise or "tenkan/Kokyu-ho" or (circle/square) based techniques.

The third exercise changes the hand movements from ones that are hip level to ones that are chest level. Starting with palms up (at your sides and chest level) begin with the forward hip movement, moving the hands forward very quickly, turning the palms down to the ground, and exhaling (kiai) using the pronouncing "saaaaaah!" this is followed by returning the hands to their original position, again moving the hands backward very quickly, this time exhaling (kiai) using the pronouncing "Aaaay!" Again, the emphasis is on both, moving the hands forward (very quickly) and back (just as quickly).

However, it is important to note that you should try this last part of the Torifune exercise in only one breath, pushing all of your breath out as you move forward and back until you can not kiai any longer. This is way to combine both the male/female and female/male aspect, for techniques based upong the ever-changing eb-flow of giving/receiving<---into--->receiving/giving "ki" exercise or "Irimi/Kokyu-ho" (triangle/square) or "tenkan/Kokyu-ho" (circle/square) based techniques. This last set is again followed by furitama-no-gyo.

Generally, furitama-no-gyo is practiced to warm the body up before misogi-no-gyo (dousing one's self with cold water). Then after misogi-no-gyo, the routine (in the above order) is followed. This is a daily practice, and should be done four times a day (early morning, late morning, early afternoon, and late afternoon - generally, not at night).

If anyone is interested in more information, please feel free to contact me directly. If you have a particular question that somehow is not answered above, I will ask Abe Sensei and post his answer directly in this thread.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Misogi_No_Gyo ]

Please keep replying to my questions. If done so, thanks a lot!

Arjan

quote:

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Originally posted by Misogi_No_Gyo:
[b.......The second Torifune exercise reverses the emphasis, starting with a forward hip movement, a soft hand movement and kiai with "ho!" followed by the return of the hips, quick hand movement, while exhaling (kiai) with the compound vowel sound "Eeee-Aaaay!" Then furitama-no-gyo. This is female, or accepting ki exercise or "tenkan/Kokyu-ho" or (circle/square) based techniques. .....

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Misogi_No_Gyo ]

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Wonderfull!
I think this was the most complete explanation I ever saw about the torifune no gi, exercices.
It is almost that what the Shinto Priest that was my Aikido teacher told me, but with some differences, specially about the last exercice with the arms in the chest level.
This is a novelty to me, but I have seen some shihan doing the exercice in this way, in spite other, like Tohei Sensei, uses the one from the chest with the fingers poiting down, my shinto teacher in the past too.
I dont know if this Abe Sensei explanation is the complete one, once O Sensei taught things different in different periors of time, but for sure, it has a big scope, and is putting together many parts other teaches.
One thing that my Sensei told me was that , the kotodama "HO", was to originate centripedal forces. After your explanation of the "Yin" aspect of the exercice,I realized that this kotodama "ho",reason is maybe because one of the functions of Nigimitama,(female aspect), is generating joining and blending energies and expressing it can help generate this aspect. I would apreciate if you could confirm this with Abe Sensei.

Thank you a lot for your post and informations.

Wagner Bull

I used this term in the translation I did of the book "The Spirit of Aikido", written by Kishomaru Ueshiba, in the brazilian edition of the book.

Wagner Bull

quote:

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Originally posted by Misogi_No_Gyo:
[QB
Each of the eight specific Gyo of Misogi come from Kojiki. According to Abe Sensei, O-Sensei created aikido from kojiki. He states, "The two are inseparable." [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Misogi_No_Gyo ][/QB]

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Good friend:

While it may be accurate to say that referents for each of these practices may be found in the Kojiki, I think it is less accurate to suggest that the Kojiki is the ur-source for these practices, a number of which have cognates in both Taoist and Buddhist practice traditions.

Further, it must be noted that the Kojiki was a "lost text" until the late 18th Century Translation by Norinaga Motoori, which formed the basis of the entire Kokugaku and Neo-Shinto Movements of the 19th Century.

In the wake of the anti-Buddhist purges of the Meiji Restoration, it became a matter of political necessity to establish native Japanese (i.e. pure Shinto) roots and lineage histories for a variety of such practices. Particularly in lay practice traditions, Taoist, Buddhist and Shinto elements nestled comfortably alongside one another from the Third or Fourth Century C.E. up until the late 19th Century, so finding antecedents which are identified as "Shinto" is not terribly difficult. But there are sufficient embedded elements that clearly relate back to the Indo-Sinitic tradition to raise doubts about whether such claims of "Pure Shinto" origins are substantive or determinative.

Having said that, I should add that the sequence and organization of these practices in the Japanese recession is distinctive and I share my friend's conviction as to their efficacy and utility as a fundamental part of aikido practice.

Best regards,

Fred Little

quote:

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Originally posted by kokumo:

..... But there are sufficient embedded elements that clearly relate back to the Indo-Sinitic tradition to raise doubts about whether such claims of "Pure Shinto" origins are substantive or determinative....

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It is almost impossible to know what it is genuine and what is imported in any culture.
When recentelly I found out that the delicious "Tempur

quote:

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Originally posted by kokumo:

Good friend:

While it may be accurate to say that referents for each of these practices may be found in the Kojiki, I think it is less accurate to suggest that the Kojiki is the ur-source for these practices, a number of which have cognates in both Taoist and Buddhist practice traditions.

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Hi Fred-San. Your point is well taken. However, I was not trying to infer that Misogi was created in Kojiki, as I am sure that these practices pre-date the writing of the text, estimated I believe to be in the late 700's.

What Abe Sensei said is two-fold. First - He related that when asked, "How did you ever learn such a wonderful budo?" O-Sensei replied, "Through Misogi."

Second - was that the Misogi-No-Gyo that O-Sensei practiced he had derived from reading the Kojiki. He mapped his insightful derivations in the form of specific exercises over the "form" of religiously-based purification rituals that had been around for millennia. I think where we agree is that it is not important that the origin be known as Shinto, Taoists Buddhist, ...etc., because those practices where "religious" in nature, as opposed to being a practical path to enhancing one's kokyu power. In O-Sensei's case, I do believe that these (religiously rooted rituals, spiritual goals through practice and the clear martial benefit that could be achieved) were not mutually exclusive. I think we can all agree that O-Sensei was a deeply religious and spiritual man in his life, and deeply practical when it came to the martial arts practices through which he trained himself.

quote:

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In the wake of the anti-Buddhist purges of the Meiji Restoration, it became a matter of political necessity to establish native Japanese (i.e. pure Shinto) roots and lineage histories for a variety of such practices. Particularly in lay practice traditions, Taoist, Buddhist and Shinto elements nestled comfortably alongside one another from the Third or Fourth Century C.E. up until the late 19th Century, so finding antecedents which are identified as "Shinto" is not terribly difficult.

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We are in absolute agreement here! In simple terms for those who may get lost in your considerable knowledge of the subject matter - myself included - I have always maintained the opinion that O-Sensei had to cloak his art, to a large degree, within a Shinto context to give it a sense of legitimacy as a "pure budo," as a means to attract the upper-crust of society who tended to focus on this sort of peripheral ideal as a litmus-test for whether or not it was legitimate enough for them to train in the art.

quote:

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But there are sufficient embedded elements that clearly relate back to the Indo-Sinitic tradition to raise doubts about whether such claims of "Pure Shinto" origins are substantive or determinative.

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Clearly the link to India and China is an important path that we should all take into account. I have yet to pursue my interest in these, as precepts to our present-day focus, but intend to should I ever have the proper introductions.

quote:

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Having said that, I should add that the sequence and organization of these practices in the Japanese recession is distinctive and I share my friend's conviction as to their efficacy and utility as a fundamental part of aikido practice.

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I completely agree, but having not practiced it any other way, I have nothing to compare it to. I will say that after a dozen or so years, the internal rhythm that reveals itself is really starting to support a forever-growing, flavorful and challenging pursuit - hence why I chose my nickname on this and other boards.

Thank you again for sharing your insights. I look forward to our next meeting - in cyberspace, or Manhattan.

quote:

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Originally posted by WAGNER J . BULL - BRAZIL AIKIKAI:
Wonderfull!
I think this was the most complete explanation I ever saw about the torifune no gi, exercices.

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Thank you for your words. I have been revising this post over the last year or so, as I get clarifications from my teacher. I put it out there for several reasons.

a. because there is a general lack of information on it

b. there is a lot of misinformation our there.

c. it comes to me via Seiseki Abe Sensei

d. so people can forward questions that I have not thought to ask Abe Sensei.

(those were in no particular order)

quote:

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I don't know if this Abe Sensei explanation is the complete one, once O Sensei taught things different in different periods of time, but for sure, it has a big scope, and is putting together many parts other teaches.

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That is a good point - I will ask Abe Sensei if the Misogi O-Sensei showed him in 1952 changed between then and when he passed.

quote:

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One thing that my Sensei told me was that , the kotodama "HO", was to originate centripetal forces. After your explanation of the "Yin" aspect of the exercise, I realized that this kotodama "ho", reason is maybe because one of the functions of Nigimitama, (female aspect), is generating joining and blending energies and expressing it can help generate this aspect. I would appreciate if you could confirm this with Abe Sensei.

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Yin/female/accepting/expansive/centerfugal =
Circle/Tenkan/turning

Yang/male/repeling/contractive/centripetal =
Triangle/Irmimi/entering

There is always an element of accepting (yin) before entering, as well as an element of repelling (yang) upon turning. In this way in the first exercise "Ho" (rest position) becomes "eeaaay" (extended position) becomes "Ho" again. (rest position)

In macrobiotics there is a concept called "super-yin" or "super-yang" My understanding is that when yin reaches its maximum limit it then becomes yang (and visa-versa). In this manner (as you stated above) when you take the moment to blend with your attacker (before entering) you are blending using the female aspect - hence "ho" precedes "eeeaay" (the irimi) in this exercise.

quote:

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Thank you a lot for your post and information.
Wagner Bull

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...And thank you for your perceptive and engaging reception.

This is going very well! Or not!
The questions I have made are allready not being answered. It becomes at a stage where most people lose interest because it becomes to hard to understand or to difficult to explain to others.
I am asking you all to keep it simple so a bigger audience can understand.
Don't be offended. I am learning a lot here but it is like I mentioned in the opening post.
Reaction to reaction to reaction makes it go away from the starting post. In my opinion that is a pitty.

Greetings,

Arjan

quote:

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Originally posted by aja:
Hi all,

This is going very well! Or not!
The questions I have made are allready not being answered. It becomes at a stage where most people lose interest because it becomes to hard to understand or to difficult to explain to others.
I am asking you all to keep it simple so a bigger audience can understand.
Don't be offended. I am learning a lot here but it is like I mentioned in the opening post.
Reaction to reaction to reaction makes it go away from the starting post. In my opinion that is a pitty.

Greetings,

Arjan

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The problem is that these exercices envolves kotodama.
From what I have understood from the practice is that it is impossible to understand intelectually the relation between the kotodama and the body movements and other phenomena.
If one starts practicing repeating the sound, there will come a time, that sound, and body will mach, and then things becomes clear to the mind.

Just to start, open your mouth shouting "AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" deeply, but bringing the air from your belly, not from the upper pat of the chest, and pay attention in what it happening in your hara, and body and muscles. Then repeat again "EIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII", pay attention and compare both feelings.
You will learn something for sure.

Wagner Bull

Thanks