In Iwama style, we never made claim that Aikido founded irimi-nage, in fact, we were told that it was considered to be a secret technique in the old days....I think I have also heard it referred to as "the 20 year technique", in that it takes that long in training to fully understand it.

Having seen a few Daito Ryu videos, I can't recall any techniques that you could call irimi-nage, but this is not strange, because the techniques demonstrated to public are only from the Hiden Mokuroku, which is the basic level, or something like that, If it was in fact considered to be a secret technique, I doubt one would see it in public demos...

cheers,

Jason

From what some have said to me, I think he was referring to the version done in aikido, and not trying to say that Daito ryu doesn't have the origin of the technique.

Ron Tisdale

This technique would seem to me to be particularly "Japanese" in that it would reflect a more 1:1 encounter and further, to suppose that one is weilding the sword in a more linear fashion. I mention this because Korean sword tends to incorporate many more angles and thrusts. I am thinking that a person who closes with a swordsman using more linear and slashing movement would enjoy some advantage while closing with a person who can thrust at assorted angles might only endanger themselves further. There is also the matter of exposing ones' back to other armed opponents while addressing the single opponent at the time. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I have seen and been thrown by a virtually identical technique in ba gua (not going to throw up that argument again) so i dont think that it is unique to aikido or was formulated by O sensei, but is present in other systems.

Maybe it is part of the Aiki no jutsu section in daito Ryu?? Can anyone enlighten?

I do like the comparitivly different ways in which it is performed though. I especially like the examples shown by Gozo Shioda in the friendship demonstration, where he basically plants the opponents shoulder and head into the mat!!

nice.

Cheers,
Chris

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Davis 200:
I especially like the examples shown by Gozo Shioda in the friendship demonstration, where he basically plants the opponents shoulder and head into the mat!!

nice.

Cheers,
Chris

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Oh! you did like it,........ really? Because it wasn't YOUR head? :p

RT

In the Aiki-Buken, we have two main different types of iriminage - the shomen (and kaiten) iriminage, or, front (and turning) iriminage, and the sokumen irimi (aka: sayunage in aikikai), or entering from the side iriminage. We use the term irimi for both because the main principle is entering into the opponent. However, in Aikido there is one throw that people typically associate with the term iriminage. In regards to the Aikido iriminage throwing shape, I have my own theory as to its origin.

Ueshiba Sensei appears to have studied a form of Shinkage ryu jujutsu at one point. Shinkage ryu jujutsu has a pretty brutal technique that is basically the same thing as the Aikido iriminage (though I don't know if they use the same name for it). As such, I suspect - until contrary evidence presents itself - that Ueshiba Sensei may have borrowed this technique and adapted it from Shinkage ryu jujutsu.

As far as irimi in swordsmanship, what Will describes may be considered one application of the concept. However, it has been my experience in the swordsmanship I'm familiar with that, like Aikido and Jujutsu, there are two basic responses/approaches technically to an opponent - that of entering (irimi), and that of turning out/circling (kaiten, or tenkan in mainline Aikido). Irimi techniques in swordsmanship are often decisive in nature (hard to explain), and are usually applied under one type of set up or circumstance, and Kaiten techniques are usually applied under another type of setup or circumstance. Everything is either irimi or kaiten, or a combination of both, and this is one (of many) of the main aspects of swordsmanship that I see incorporated into Aikido and Jujutsu.

Judo in fact works almost exclusively on the theory that, "if pushed, turn out [kaiten], and if pulled, enter [irimi]". This principle is what the "ju" (yawara) of ju-do means (flexible, yielding). This blending can also be seen in Aikido as what is typically known as the omote and ura techniques, in which in the case of grabbing techniques, they are catagorized the same way. From this standpoint, a lot of what Aikido calls aiki is what Judo calls yawara.

So I wouldn't tend to limit the definition of irimi in swordsmanship to the single idea of smothering the oppponent, though this is also a good tactic. Typically technical ideas such as tsuba-zeriai (meeting swords at the tsuba in order to vye for dominance) and tai-atari (body blows/displacements) are used.

BTW, I perform the aikido-type iriminage in two ways - that in which a spiral/wave shape is used to throw the opponent down smoothly (typical), or, that in which a smaller spiral is used more aggressively through the opponent to throw the opponent's feet up in the air (like that used by Seagal). There is nothing painful or "mean" about throwing your opponent this way on to their shoulder blades, as long as they have learned the standard jumping back break fall. I in fact took about 10 or 20 of these last night for my students while they were learning this technique (nice air time). It is a problem if they over rotate and get planted on their head though...

(And this techniques DOES work)

Regards,

[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Szczepan:
Oh! you did like it,........ really? Because it wasn't YOUR head? :p

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FWIW, David Lynch wrote in a column somewhere that this was SOP for Shioda; he'd hurt someone and make jokes about it. Watching the video, it seems hard to refute. (It's also hard not to laugh. The man had good timing. But I wasn't laughing when the back of that guy's head hit the mat--he came up staggering and spastic.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Nathan Scott:

(And this techniques DOES work)

Regards,

[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]

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well probably we are not talking of the same iriminage here

The way Shioda sensei did it, uke must help and cooperate, otherwise he will not hit ground with his head.

The only other possibility, without uke's cooperation is to set up situation and attack of a uke. This is impossible for aikido folks, cos aikido wasn't create for that purpose and has not methods for set up attacker. Idea of aikido techniques is based on entire cooperation of attacker.

If attacker is not cooperating, and you somehow (ex using your sword skills) will enter in appropriate timing and distance, you can make him KO but surly he will not bend his body back to accept and receive your atemi(and hit ground with his head in the end...). He is not expecting such situation and you and him you are moving on two opposite directed vectors in full speed.

He has no chance to react like that. Or you must slow down your atemi. And this means creating an opening in your own attack.
IMO

Ron

I Dont agree that a sensei should do this to his uke, but hey i think they were used to it, yoshinkan is pretty hardcore.

Go see some yoshinkan guys n see if it can be done on a resisting opponent but dont oppose it cause you know it is comming.

Although not a yoshinkan practitioner i have used a technique very similar to this on 3 seperate occassions when working as a doorman.

I think people forget that NO technique is expected when you are fighting someone on the street. they dont know they will be thrown in this manner, and so, provided that you used the technique when it applicable, it will work. (and provided you are competant enough!)

cheers
chris

I beg to differ with regard to judo - as I believe Kano described it: Judo pulls when pushed, and pushes when pulled. It's Daito-ryu and subsequently aikido that typically turns/rotates when pushed, and enters when pulled. I agree this likely derives from kenjutsu influence, but it is markedly different from judo, is it not?

Both use the opponent's energy, or force against himself, but that is where the similarity ends (imo) because they do so in different ways, using different methods.

I do agree with the common correllation between omote/irimi and ura/tenkan with regard to aikido and sometimes DR jujutsu, but traditionally the terms omote and ura also have different meanings in koryu bujutsu, and don't necessarily correllate at all with entering and turning, or front and back.

The reason (imho) that a lot of what aikido calls "aiki" is what judo calls "yawara" is because technically aikido is primarily derived from jujutsu. The character "ju" also pronounced "yawara" is obviously the same for judo and jujutsu, it generally means flexible/supple/pliant, and it suggests a bending and/or yeilding or conforming to force rather than resisting or opposing it.

The other reason is that aikidoka have traditionally defined aiki as an abstract concept. Therefore many practitioners these days aren't clear about the meaning of the term.

It's my understanding that the "aiki" in aikido is primarily a spiritual/conceptual ideal (coordinating/harmonizing one's body, mind and/or spirit, becoming one with nature, the universe, etc...). But in practical or physical terms, it is manifested by harmonizing or blending with one's opponent(s) and/or the incoming forces of attack, and redirecting them to a mutually beneficial resolution (if possible).

In aikido for the most part, it is the techniques and principles of yawara (jujutsu) that are the primary means of accomplishing that "harmonization". Specifically, in the context of aikido, I think that this might more accurately be referred to as 'awase' or blending, would it not?

In Daito-ryu Jujutsu this 'concept' of aiki (blending/harmonization) is at times more linear, but is more or less the same as in aikido (especially from the chuden level up). Again imho, I think the physical manifestation of this concept of 'harmonizing ki' is roughly equivalent to awase or blending. Obviously the matching, mirroring, or joining with an opponent's movements can take place at various levels, and in myriad ways beyond the simple tai-sabaki exercises often practiced in many dojos. But the principle of joining/blending is the same.

However, in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, the principles and techniques of yawara (including awase) may still be present and/or observable, but the addition of "aiki" makes it decidely different. IOW, I think that the term "aiki" in DR refers to something quite distinct from what others (especially in aikido) are talking about when they use the same term. Since this is a forum about DR, but is presumably frequented by mostly aikidoka, I feel compelled to point out the differences.

Specifically, I think "aiki" in DR refers to an alternative or unique means or method (as distinct from those of jujutsu/yawara and aikido) that we use to achieve harmony.

Thus the "techniques of aiki" or "aiki no jutsu" exist in Daito-ryu not as a subset of advanced jujutsu techniques, tricks, or concepts, but rather as a separate curriculum, an altogether different type or catagory of techniques comprised of different or unique means. When these techniques are used in conjunction with jujutsu/yawara techniques, it's called "aikijujutsu". The addition or infusion of aiki in application, changes the means by which harmonization takes place in the execution of techniques, and that is the unique essence of Daito-ryu.

According to Sokaku Takeda, aiki is not only a collection of secret techniques it was/still is the essence of Daito-ryu's tradition. Therefore, the ideal of Daito-ryu is naturally to incorporate that secret essence (aiki) into all it's aspects.

DR aiki (as I understand it) then, shouldn't be confused with either what aikido people call "aiki", or what judo/jujutsu people refer to as yawara, because they're completely different. You can think of it as a completely different operating or delivery system, or as another means or technological method of using the opponent's strength against himself in a more efficient manner.

There are other important differences as well, but I think this is perhaps one of the more obvious ones that those familiar with both Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and aikido (and/or judo) might notice.

Pardon me for taking a tangent away from the 'orgin of irimi nage' - I just thought I should comment on the judo remark, and hopefully clarify a little about the differences between aikido, judo and Daito-ryu AJJ.

Those familiar with me and my postings over the years (here and at e-budo) more or less know what I think about aiki, and the importance of making proper distictions - and although it's been a while since I've expounded on those views, this bit should suffice to remind for now.

Respectfully,

BK

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Brently Keen ]

I'm not sure why you thought to post what you did, especially in response to my post. I thought the intent of my post was pretty clear. Also, I haven't mentioned anything about how Daito ryu defines aiki, one, because I don't know, and two, because it has nothing to do with the origin of iriminage. Really, I'm surprised that Okamoto Sensei would teach all the secrets of Daito ryu aiki to someone who is at shodan level, but if he has, then keep typing!

Back to discussions about iriminage (sorry for bringing up judo previously...),

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]