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Originally posted by locknthrow:
So if I understand what you are saying it does have actual Daito-Ryu techs in it? Only the author's lineage is in question? (to me, a novice in the ways of Daito-Ryu it would seem like EVERY lineage is in question)

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Watch the nomenclature in the book, it's very Aikido-esque. Most Daito Ryu schools don't use names like ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, etc. to describe specific locks and techniques that would otherwise be named ippondori/gyakuudedori, kotemawashi, kotehineri, etc.

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Originally posted by Dan:

This is bit funny to talk about so bear with me.

First off the names ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo are the property of The Daito ryu. Aikido would never had heard of any of this stuff and would not exist on the earth with out Daito ryu's Ikkajo, niikajo, etc...
[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Dan ]

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Dan--

This overall ordering looks like another of those "specific uses of a generic pattern" you discuss in relation to a number of techniques. The sequence of "ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, etc." is commonly used in legal documents, and a number of specifically cataloged sub-items may be included in each (which seems to be one of the differences between ikkajo as used in DR and ikkyo in Aikido, which is generally viewed as one technique).

While your view that the underlying techniques of ikkajo and so forth are the "property of DR" may be supportable, the apparent claim that the names are the property of DR is not, and undercuts your larger argument.

On the other hand, the use of an ordering system drawn from legal documentation makes sense given the social circles in which Sokaku Takeda taught, the historical fact of his illiteracy, and the likelihood that the codification was performed by a student with legal training, such as a judge.

Still and all, the organization system may be unusual enough in budo circles that the fact that the Aikido curriculum seems to follow this same pattern could be rather telling, as is the clear pattern of differentiation (from ikkajo to ikkyo). That's really a question for Ellis, or Meik Skoss or one of the other individuals who has had the opportunity to review a sizeable number of makimono and the like.

Most importantly, as you say in your subsequent discussion of the use of "generic labels" for specific techniques imparted in practice:

"This is the key. This has nothing to do with the syllabus."

In the end, it always comes down to the teacher and the student.

Best,

Fred Little

What we are talking about here are "made up" lineages which reflect negatively on the character of the person claiming them. Some people would chose not to train with a person who has fabricated their martial arts background on moral grounds. Others don't care one way or the other.

That's the way I see things.

Stanley Pranin

But the character issue just doesn't evaporate because someone is physically competant, in my mind. It must be addressed. A political parallel -- Many felt Clinton did well as far as performing the job...but the character issue kind of stuck in their craw. YMMV of course (mine did, at the time).

Ron Tisdale

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While Mr. Kondo's skills are considerable you really could not discuss him in the same sentence as say Sagawa now could you?

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Oh, you so tricky...

Ron (yeah, I know, zipperhead) Tisdale

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Originally posted by Dan:

No more writing as a commercial break from work.

Dan

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Hah. Yah, sure. Some people seem to have all day to write loooong involved posts on the forums, while the rest of us are actually getting work done.

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Originally posted by Dan:
Hi Fred

I respectfully disagree on a few points. Trying to bring in other Koryu

I believe the term Dan is looking for is "culmulative" (sounds similar), which is a very accurate term/translation for the type of advanced kansetsuwaza used.

Also, and this may be stating the obvious, but I think what Fred was referring to with the legal stuff was that ikkajo, nikkajo etc. is commonly used Japanese nomenclature for numbering, as is ikkyo, nikyo, etc.

In terms of Daito ryu, it is actually not the most imaginative system of classification for a martial art, but it is true that Aikido clearly borrowed these terms/concepts from DR. I suspect that most Aikido groups changed the terms from -kajo to -kyo in recognition of the fact that the -kajo in DR refers to a set of techniques (not just one), rather than a specific principle - though some Aikido groups still use the -kajo terms.

But as far as this book goes, it does seem to be an odd mix of terms and technique. Some of it is clearly Aikido influenced (both in technique and terminology), while other aspects seem to borrow from the Takumakai and some of the aiki branches. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of the type of stuff that the Saigo-ha (Sogawa) group sells, though Omiya claims a different lineage from them.

I always assumed that the Saigo-ha constructed what they have from books, videos and enbu of various DR branches and perhaps Aikido. I wonder if Mr. Omiya supplemented his research in a similar way?

Regards,

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]

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Originally posted by Nathan Scott:
Hi all,

I believe the term Dan is looking for is "culmulative" (sounds similar), which is a very accurate term/translation for the type of advanced kansetsuwaza used.
[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]

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Nathan, are you referring to this comment:

"Don Angiers "communative locking" to describe a Daito ryu method of capturing center."

I thought Angier's term was "commutative locking" as in a successive setup of connections. Although "cumulative" means "to accumulate" (i.e. to gather and add up connections), which makes sense too.

Cady

I guess it would have been easier to just ask ya'll, huh? I thought you used a term like "commutive", but when I double checked it in the dictionary, such a word didn't exist. The closest one that made sense was the one I suggested.

Cumulative defines as "made up of accumulated parts; increasing by successive additions". This matches the idea of creating a bridge to uke's center by increasting successive additions to the joint locking alingnment, rather than connecting through the tension caused by twisted joints that is more typical in Aikido and Jujutsu. Interesting.

Regards,

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nathan Scott ]

Yes, it just goes to show that we non-Yanagi-ryu geeks should stick to our own system's (lack of definitive) terminology for certain principles. Or, keep on stea...er... borrowing from Don Angier's apt vocabulary.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Cady Goldfield ]